Injector leaking at base after nozzle upgrade

Discussion in 'VW Mk4 Jetta, Golf, New Beetle, Passat TDI forum' started by mgoff5000, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    I followed the guide in the wiki to install new nozzles today. Getting some fuel coming out the base of injector #3 where it meets the head. I pulled the injector and tightened the body another 15-20 degrees but same leak.
    I didn't have another new crush washer so I ordered some of those. Hard to tell where leaking. Any tips on diagnosing? I'm tempted to tighten the fork more. Don't care if that breaks necessarily so long as I don't mess up the threads on head or damage injector. Any thoughts?
     
  2. audi1z

    audi1z Member

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    The threads will surely give up before the fork clamp gives up. And, for the case the injector is leaking, it makes few sense to press it deeper into the cylinder head. Seems that the injector screw cap is damaged.
     
  3. crsmp5

    crsmp5 Well-Known Member

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    cannot reuse crushwashers...

    yes that fork will break.. and yes you can damage both head and injector..

    those bubbles can be compression gasses with left over lube.. so new washers...
     
  4. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    I guess I'm trying to see if I can narrow down whether the leak is happening. I see three options:
    1. crush washer - so fuel is sprayed into cylinder then pushed out by compression (bubbles maybe support this)
    2. where nozzle seats against opening in screw cap (assuming there is fuel in there?)
    3. Threads where the screw cap attaches to injector body

    I tried to deal with #3 and don't know how much more I'd tighten the cap. Already past 33 ft-lbs + 45 degrees

    To address #2 I can take apart again, clean cap and re-seat everything and tighten

    To address #1 I can clean the mating surfaces more and try a new washer
     
  5. audi1z

    audi1z Member

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    1. not possible, you would get blow by gas;
    2. would mean dirty;
    3. possible only with damaged screw cap;

    add 4. - crack in screw cap - it is severely over-tightened with your method. 33ft-lbs is enough
     
  6. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    Thanks for the notes guys. Well sounds like it's coming apart again for a look next. I followed method in wiki. So if wrong, please suggest an edit there. Hit the cap with brake cleaner pretty good but could have been carbon left. Any rec on where to buy a cap if that is issue.

    On blow by gas, I did see some bubbles first time round but figured there was air purging after lines/injector apart. Would seeing bubbles indicate it's the crush washer seal?

    New washers on way so will get after this again next week.
     
  7. crsmp5

    crsmp5 Well-Known Member

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    have a spare set of washers on hand.. my local napa gets them next day.. if you have to wait days for them

    next.. till driven a titch to build carbon up they may seep gasses.. but bubbles are from fuel leaking down the injector body when removing fuel line.. then the bubbles are the fuel boiling away.. if the cap was a issue it would leak midway up not at the tip..

    next on tdi club there is a hammer/tap method for installing the injectors.. i suggest giving it a read and attempting it.. if you do not get how light a tap he refers you can do more damage then good.. but in torquing the bolts to 18ft-lbs you can see what he refers.. it does work.. and ive not had comeback a month or 2 later of a gasket all sudden springing a leak.. but to hit it too hard will ruin the gasket.. so you gotta know how light a tap is required and a few really light taps will do good vs one heavy hit.. just torque it each tap.. you will see how much more that bolt will turn.. with little effort...
     
  8. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    Cool, will check the hammer tap method.

    How to tell if leak is at washer or cap threads? Both below surface of head when installed.
     
  9. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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  10. crsmp5

    crsmp5 Well-Known Member

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    yup thats it..

    there is 100% no way your watchig the copper crush side leaking fuel... so if injector body dry (brake clean and compressed air) and you crank it over.. you should see the seam get wet with fuel as someone cranks it over... and no the cap thread at seam is above head height
     
  11. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    ah, my bad then. I must not have looked behind the fork enough. I saw fuel welling up from the injector/block meeting point so that means it's the washer. I'm on the road through next week but I'll clean everything, use new washer, hammer tap and see how we go. Thanks for tips.
     
  12. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    OK, so I pulled injector #3 again and cleaned everything up and tried a new washer. Still got the leak unfortunately.
    On my engine (ALH) the seam of the injector body is definitely out of sight below the head. However, I do see bubbles coming from the injector bore which I would think indicate combustion gases and thus the washer. I let it run about ten minutes to see what would happen, just a slow drip.
    I'll look further into the hammer method but I'm a bit stuck on what the issue is. The bore and injector look clean/smooth.
     
  13. crsmp5

    crsmp5 Well-Known Member

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    well... the worst case scenario is you scratched where the crush gasket sits in the head and is now scrap... there is NO thicker crush gasket to buy.. and if the hammer/tap method does not work.. you may be screwed.. but did you go for a spin to let carbon help seal it into place yet?? if not you need to after hammer/tap trick... that little bit of carbon/soot will form a seal..

    also you used new injector rubber hoses or they the old cloth covered ones?? cannot reuse cloth style stock ones.. they will leak/creep fuel down the injector body allowing it to boil in that area... think of them as 1 time use unless you can trim off the ends and reinstall like its a new hose.. i used to make them longer then needed so could shorted to get 2 uses from.. but.. read next..

    i use rc nitro fuel line made by dubro.. the multi colored package... ive never had one leak and can be reused... 6 years n counting on 1st set (89k miles including a 13 day cross country 3500 mile trip)... lots over past 2 since cloth dont seem to last 3... can get in all fun colors... :) pink/orange/green/yellow are the multi colored packs i go with.. ive never tried the translucent as in rc they would turn black from heat where this pack never did.. other brands would swell and break.. but never tried on diesel... just nitro fuel.. next... but nitro is not diesel and diesel gets hot... they hook it up to the exhaust pipe to presurise the fuel tank to feed the carb of the engine with fuel... so made for heat and highly flamable liquid that has a oil in it.. i needed a quick fix one day.. and like i said 6 years later.. all ill use now

    http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFRP9&P=7

    is a example... thats nuff for 1 car..
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  14. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    I'll check for leaks on those hoses. I replaced them a while ago and probably still have some line.

    I didn't want to drive with a leak so I let it idle about 10 minutes in hopes it would deposit some soot.

    I realize there is one difference with injector #3 compared to others. I couldn't counter hold when tightening the supply line on top. As I'd already torqued the crush washer this might ruin the seal as is mentioned in the hammer tap post. Very little of the flat on the injector body is exposed above the fork. I could probably torque the supply line while counter holding the injector before installing the fork and compressing the crush washer. Or is there a skinny wrench folks use to grab the injector after the fork is in place?
     
  15. crsmp5

    crsmp5 Well-Known Member

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    buy cheap wrench... using a grinder make as thin as required... :p some times custom tools need made.. you will find your self doing this on brake jobs where wrench to thick to fit between the slider and caliper.. which is just how it is..

    but yup.. also why i say get spare washers as it does make them loose their seal... i thought it was a good design till stuff gets worn/old.. then its no longer a good design..
     
  16. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    Makes sense. I've always faked it with a Dremmel but might finally need a bench grinder. I'll hunt through the archives of IKEA assembly wrenches first, though may still need to attach a longer handle to it.
    I have three more new washers to work with. Was thinking it might be worth getting a true VW one as well in case those have some magical properties.
    The surfaces look great, so hoping just a technique issue.
     
  17. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    Tried a new washer, counter held while tightening fuel line and drove around a bit. Still got leak.

    Think I'll back up and reassemble the injector and maybe order some washers straight from dealership. I'm at a loss here.
     
  18. mgoff5000

    mgoff5000 Member

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    So it turned out to be #2. I took the injector apart again, cleaned the cap, nozzle and disc that the nozzle sits on. Reassembled and installed. No fuel leak, at least for the 10 minutes I idled and took a quick spin around block. Will add a troubleshooting block to the wiki and include this.
     

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